Is It Time to Protect Your Manhood? - Ken Coffey, LPC-I


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01:31                                     on today's show. We interview Ken Coffee Can, as a therapist that has a program called protecting your manhood. I can't tell you how many men have come in. Just wondering what the heck is going on. Like why am I so misunderstood? Why am I so many times in conflict with my spouse or my children or my parents or my coworkers or whoever else it is and uh, and when I can get and when I can get them to just sit for a minute and just be honest with themselves. They come down and, and then they say like, no one knows, really knows who I am. And when I asked him why, why that is, it's because there's this deep sense of loneliness and isolation that pervade, I believe the men in our community and, and allowing a man to be vulnerable. And it's really, it's really a beautiful process, but it takes time and it takes the ability for the man to feel secure and safe. And the and the, and the seeming like all the other guys have it figured out is the sham. Just a, it's a big. It's a big facade. That's not real.

02:52                                     Let's get started.

03:03                                     Hi and welcome to make more love not war. This is Terah Harrison, a licensed professional counselor and relationship expert.

03:11                                     This is her husband, Jeff Harrison. Have no qualifications whatsoever. Just a normal dude.

03:18                                     Today. We're here with Ken Coffey. He's a licensed professional counselor intern at his story, which is located in. Great. Fine. And I'd like to start with your story, Ken, because you have a really interesting story about how you came into counseling from having your Mba to becoming a counselor. How did that happen?

03:37                                     Well, sure. Thanks. And thanks for having me Tara. I appreciate the opportunity. My um, my, my journey I guess into counseling was bumpy and it was, it was long. So I came out of a business background. I grew up, I went the traditional route through college. I majored in business and economics. I got your typical job at a bank and as you mentioned, I got an Mba after that and continued on through the nineties. I'm working in investment banking. Everything seemed to be going great. Just hitting on all cylinders. Um, marriage. I'm married to a high school sweetheart of mine and um, the sky seemed to be the limit except for my internal condition wasn't that great. I, uh, I noticed at some point that something wasn't right inside of me. Um, my motivation seemed to be lacking. The joy in my life was, um, was failing my, my desire to, um, to just be present with my wife and my newborn son was not there. I was turning more towards alcohol and other substances to please myself to just numb out that feeling, that hollow place. And I didn't understand like, why, why I was so dissatisfied when on the outside looking in, I had it all.

05:10                                     Yeah, like, look, perfect on paper, right? You had the job, you had the family or the job, you had everything. He lived in a great house. I mean, you had all this stuff

05:18                                     cheat. Everything I set out to achieve for myself and yet I was, I was empty and uh, and so, um, so I, I went to a counselor, I went through some pretty intense counseling myself and um, and had to really look deep and hard at what I was doing and why I was doing it and where I was doing it. And it didn't happen overnight. The change, the transformation that happened within me was, was hard work and a, and I'll always appreciate the counselor that told me that, you know, candidates only hard and you can do hard. So I changed entirely. I went from being the investment banker to I'm dedicating myself to deciding that I needed to really to help other people and to figure out how it is I'm going to integrate my, my life and my goals and my priorities to give back to society, to give back to my family, to give back to my community.

06:22                                     And counseling seemed like a good, a good avenue for that. People had told me that I had a, a, a knack for that, if you will, if I had a propensity, a niche. And um, I resisted that for a long time. So what was coming up for you and people said that and you were feeling resistant? I didn't, I didn't. Well, I liked, I liked the lifestyle that I had become accustomed to before and I knew that, um, that, uh, that the change would, would require some adjustments in my lifestyle and my identity was tied up and also being a business person and being a banker, I didn't see myself in the clothes or the kind of the garb of a counselor. And so I just, I didn't want to accept it. So I made up excuses of why they were wrong. And uh, and I was right.

07:15                                     The other thing that was coming up was that it was, I didn't, I didn't believe that it could be true. I thought I viewed myself as a fraud. A lot of times I've viewed myself as being a disingenuine and a lot of spaces. And uh, and I still thought of myself that if people only knew me, they wouldn't be saying these nice things about me. Man, isn't that something we all feel though? Yeah, it. And I'm discovering that now. Yeah. So, so, so again, like I said, that the path to the counselor role was I had overcome my own resistance, my own obstacles, my own negativity, my own resistance to, to all of these things before I could make myself useful to others. So through that process of really some, some, some self reflection, some and also work with my spouse, with my wife and my kids and uh, and working on I'm prioritizing what it is, what did I want out of life.

08:17                                     I mean, I'm in, I'm in my forties then now moving up in my forties, I had to look at, you know, what, where am I going, what am I doing, how am I going to get there? And uh, and counseling finally made sense. I finally woke up one day and committed to this path. So I did what I needed to do. I had to go back to school. That wasn't fun, but it's necessary now. Balancing your family and, and also working while you were in school versus the last master's. The master's degree is much easier, right? No kids and no job. And only go into school was as much as much simpler life than, than today with two children and a job. And how long did it take? So this, this time around, took three years to get the master's degree. I actually, um, I, well, uh, so I accelerated myself. I cut back on my professional hours and took a part time job so I could get done as quickly as possible. I'm a little impatient.

09:19                                     Once I decided I wanted it done full bore, I went, I went all in and once you get past that resistance, you're like, I'm doing it. It's going to be done. It'll be done yesterday. So I got it done in three years and uh, and then started practicing a as a counselor. So I went, uh, I, I like to say actually it's not a, it's not as big a turn to people like to say, wow. He went from investment banking to counseling. That must have been a big change. And it's really not, if you think of conceptualize it the way I do. And that is, I'm really just a meeting people and I'm trying to figure out what they want and I'm trying to meet their needs. And so I did the same thing in banking. I met people, I tried to figure out what they wanted and I tried to meet their needs.

10:03                                     And so the skill set is really basically the same. I'm just bringing it with a different set of tools if you will. Well, and now working through your own resistance and knowing how long it takes to work their resistance for yourself, even though you said you're not patient maybe with yourself, but I'm assuming that you can be really patient with other people because you know, how long resistance takes to work through I am, I am. I'm more kind and loving than I ever thought I could ever be. And uh, and, and I am, I am a better person for it. Now, if you went back to investment banking now with the skills that you have, what are some things that you could improve on and be able to take your lessons now and be a better investment banker? Well, I, I would probably be a better investment banker.

11:00                                     I would probably do a lot different deals than I did back in my day. Um, but I would, I don't, I don't know that it would change the type of, um, the type of transactions I would join. So Am I core, I'm still the same person I always was, and that's why I'm saying I'm still brought the same Ken that was doing what I was doing in the nineties to what I'm doing now today. I haven't changed in my essence at all. What I did was I shed off a lot of bad habits, a lot of bad purchase, a misperceptions of who I was and what I was, my identity that was tied up so much and how I looked and where I lived and um, how much time I spent at work and what I did was changed more towards who I spend that time with, how I spend that time with them and where I was.

11:58                                     I'm taking, um, myself and, and my family with me, if that makes any sense. So what I hear is that you're more keen than you've ever been. A more pure, I guess would be, right? Yeah. That would be accurate. Yeah. Yeah. Not with other people's stuff on top of you and what they think you should be. Yeah. A lot of that anxiety and that, that emptiness in that, um, that lost feeling I believe I had was because I was waiting for everyone else to tell me who I was and I wasn't able to discern for myself who I was. Do you think that's also some of the path that you took? Have been an investment banker because like, there's so many steps, so many boxes you have to tick the, even just become that and you're always looking for somebody to tell you, well, what's the next box now?

12:43                                     I fixed that. Yeah. So the, the banking businesses really opportunistic. You wait for a deal to come through and when it comes through you capitalize on it. So, um, it was waiting for someone to tell you, you know what to do next is uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, it produces a lot of anxiety. It's not easy. It you're waiting for validation based on whether or not the deal succeeds or not and um, that's a hard way to live to, um, as opposed to just knowing that I have value and worth just because I am, because you are who you are. Just I am an investment. Banking is also, there are numbers, you know, somebody else's got a deal that came through his door and he's looking like a superstar and you're like, thank you can take that essence of I love you because you are, you and you can take it into anything if you still were in investment banking, what you've learned through this whole experience of I love myself because of who I am, not what I do.

13:50                                     You can take that into anything now. That's like a super power you have. That's right. And so I find myself today in, in counseling still thinking about deals to be made and businesses to be built and opportunities to be capitalized on. So you never lose that, that skill set. You never lose that outlook, but you do it from a, from a foundation of strength as opposed to a position of fear, which may or may have been where I was coming from before. And fear is debilitating and it leads you into activities that are coming because you don't want to feel that true. Yes, exactly right. That's exactly right. A lot of the work that I do has, is really focused on men today. So my, my, my practice, um, I feel myself drawn a lot of times to a man that, that may be searching for a, for an identity, right?

14:47                                     Or maybe searching for a purpose. I'm searching for dream. Um, and, and I say, man, uh, I include everybody from, from the youngest, that idea with our 15 year olds up to, you know, 60 and above. So I'm not age limited in any way, but what I find is, um, this, this whole yearning, this whole searching, this whole kind of wanting to know who you are is, um, is universal amongst men. And I don't believe that men talk about it enough. So true in my short time of practice, you know, a couple of years now, I can't tell you how many men have come in just wondering what the heck is going on. Like why am I so misunderstood? Why am I so many times in conflict with my spouse or my children or my parents or my coworkers or whoever else it is and uh, and when I can get and when I can get them to just sit for a minute and just be honest with themselves. They come down and, and they say like, no one knows, really knows who I am. And when I asked him why, why that is, it's because there's this deep sense of loneliness and isolation that pervades, I believe that the men and in our, in our community, in our society today. And that, that just breaks my heart.

16:14                                     It is really sad. And I definitely see that men are really struggling with that. Like you said, they don't feel like they can talk about it with other people and women are the gift women have as this inherent community. And we talk all the time about all the roles we have to juggle and all that kind of stuff. And I'm a mother, but I'm also a person and all that kind of stuff. We talk about that a lot. And so I think often there's a misconception that men don't struggle with that and it's so not true. And that's where that loneliness comes from because maybe they feel shame that they're struggling with this. And it seems like all the other guys have it figured out, right?

16:45                                     And the, and the, and the seeming like all the other guys have figured out is a sham. It's just a, it's a big, it's a big facade that's not real, that, that is meant to keep everybody on that level of likes. Let's just pretend like everything's okay. And uh, but it's really not. If you really get underneath, um, everybody will, will most likely admit like, no, I feel lonely. I feel insecure. I feel like if only somebody would talk to me. Um, another way I've had it described that that's really, um, that really resonated with me. I thought this guy hit it on the, on the nail on the head was he said, I feel like I'm walking a tight rope with no net all the time. Oh my gosh. That's awful. Yeah. Can you imagine stressful? And he was a father and he was a successful businessman and he was a husband and he was due again. He was, he was, I guess why, why it resonated with me because he looked a lot like me at the time, but, but he was, if you looked at him from the outside, he was doing fine writing that they would say to them like people would pat them on the back and say, man, you're doing great. Kudos. Well, how do you, how could he respond to somebody after they pat them on the bat back and say, man, you're killing it.

17:56                                     And it's so vulnerable to say, actually, I'm not actually. Yeah, just dying inside

18:01                                     this. Actually I feel like I'm walking on a tightrope with no, how can he that's, that's not, uh, that's not a really an icebreaker, you know, at a, at a cocktail party.

18:10                                     Well, and even how, maybe sometimes, how can he tell his wife there's, um, I think it's in men with women, women and worthiness. It's in one of Brenny Brown book. She talks about how, um, she does a lot of research on shame and perfectionism. Women and a man came up to her and said, why aren't you doing this research on men? And she kinda got defensive with it a little bit and was like, well, I just, I just researched women and stuff and she really realized how important it was to her when, when he said, you know, I feel like I can't be vulnerable with my wife. She'd rather shoot me off that white horse I rode in on then to see me cry. And I mean, that's such huge pressure for men, right?

18:48                                     Yeah. Because he feels like he has to hold it together for her sake. And really, so, so you've, you've probably done couples counseling too, so that the process of opening men up and, and allowing a man to be vulnerable and it's really, it's really a beautiful process. But it takes time and it takes the ability for the man to feel secure and safe in an environment where he can say, you know what, I don't have it all together. I don't know what I'm doing. No one told me how to do this thing. No one showed me how to do it. I wish they had. And, and express all those doubts and fears and anxieties that, that he has carrying around that he's never expressed before. The liberation that comes with just expressing them and then having someone else validate those feelings is healing in itself. And that's what I try to do for the men is just giving them that space so that they can do that. And then, and then connect them with other men that have gone through the same process so that then they can support each other, help each other, know each other and grow with each other.

19:52                                     So how do you connect men with other men? Do you have groups here that meet or how did, how do you do that?

19:58                                     Well, it's slow because they're, they're hard to find. But, uh, we, we started to do workshops here at his story and, um, and we started to work, roll out these workshops, we call it protecting your manhood and, um, and we love the title because really we believe that at their core, everybody, men have a core manhood and it has to be nurtured and protected. And that's what I'm talking about. Who are you at your core, you're a man. And so let's, the workshop itself is designed to, to kind of shave off all of the imperfections, all of the stuff that's been accumulated over the years, all of the expectations, all of the, um, all of the bad habits, all of the shame, all of maybe the guilt, all of the false images that have been picked up over the years, um, identify those, get rid of those and just get down to the core of who each individual man is and then create a community of likeminded individuals that can go forward from those conferences and support each other.

21:11                                     So it's protect your manhood. We put it on about twice a year at his story. And um, and it's been, it's been well received. It's been, it's been attended by a handful of men so far. The men that have attended go out there changed that. One of the, one of the main things that we look for in the feedback that we get and we were looking for was, was action plans and change. One thing to come in and talk about it. It's another thing to actually see the, that these men will go out and actually do something afterwards. So we didn't want to just come in and give a bunch of information and have them feel good and say, oh, that was good and see you later. We wanted to actually see that they went out and did something. So a couple men reported, a one man actually reported that he went and reconciled with his father after, after the session, another one, he reported that he was taken action on, uh, on, uh, an issue with pornography that he had after the session. So we had, we had a couple other reports on actual tangible action items that they took immediately after the workshop, which is, which is what we're looking for, just something, some movement and the behavior and activity and then the, the cohesion that's formed amongst the group is our, is our objective with protecting your manhood so successful so far. We're looking forward to doing more.

22:24                                     Yeah. And you have another one coming up in September, is that correct? September. October. We haven't set the date in the fall. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well that will be nice. Yeah. Okay. Well, and we can post that on our website when we know to, for our listeners that are local. Well I'm, I'm very curious. You brought up your wife that you've been married since you're in high school and so getting married that young growing up together and you knew each other before that. How, how old were you when you met? Pretty Young, right. We got married after college. We've known each other since high school, so we've known each other since we were 17. 17, okay. Yeah. So yeah, not got married in high school. Did I say that? I'm sorry. It's okay. Yes. Well, so you, but you knew each other since 17 years old, so you've seen each other change a lot and I wonder what kind of difference in the connection you saw with her after you went through this period of stripping off all of the, all of the crap that was weighing you down that was causing you to disconnect from her.

23:21                                     I bet that was a powerful shift in your relationship. Yeah. So, so one of my

23:25                                     biggest fears was actually that I was going to change and that she wasn't going to love me anymore, that I would change so much that it would affect our marriage and they fall apart. And that was, that was one of my, that was one of my, you know, resistance points. I was one of the reasons why I can't do this because you know, it'll affect my marriage, which was a big fat lie, but you know, things happen,

23:46                                     but we tell ourselves lies when we have resistance. Right. You know, because that was really a fear. Like you said, it was a big fear that you had and that need to be accepted and loved is so huge and powerful and all of us.

23:57                                     So what happened was, uh, as, as I entered into this period of renewal of have like a remaking of rediscovery. She, um, she got inspired to do some work on herself as well and which was a beautiful, which was a beautiful thing to witness. She got deeper into herself and what her priorities were because she's an accountant. So she went through college, she got an accounting degree, started working for a big six accounting firm and it stayed. She, she took a more conventional career path. She, she got a job and kind of stayed with it the whole time and I see her kind of reevaluate who she was as a woman and as a mother and as a wife in this whole process was, was just amazing. And so the, both of us were kind of growing at different rates individually. But then the real kind of secret sauce was how we grew as a couple.

24:55                                     Let's take a moment to stop and take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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25:49                                     So we, we made a decision to, to reintroduce ourselves to each other in a way.

25:55                                     Oh, that's cool. Kind. Have a new couples. How did she do that?

25:58                                     So, so we said, well, let's, uh, our, our, our children were, were, um, they were, um, there were early teens, right? So they were, um, we said, let's, let's just pretend as if we were meeting each other, you know, like newlyweds and let's pretend like, like, um, like we're going to be a blended family, right? Because we have kids, we couldn't pretend like we had to complete.

26:26                                     Would you each choose a kid? Like, I'm bringing this one in now that would cause too much Dr. be strange. They might get offended by that. No, I like him better.

26:38                                     So, but, but we kind of approached it like if, if we're going to start from today, from point forward, how would we, how would we do this? Right. Knowing our baggage, no one where we came from knowing what we had, but saying just starting from this point forward with two boys, one with special needs, the other one, you know, just going into middle school, um, with, you know, with, with everything that we know about each other. If we just started from today going forward, how would we do this? And um, and we, we courted, we dated, we, uh, we just started a new and, and that was, that was a challenge too because I was, it forced me to do and, and what it brought up within her was how much we took each other for granted. Oh, she's always going to be there because she's always been there.

27:22                                     We'd already been married for 20 some odd years. So it was, it was a, it was a challenge but also is so rewarding because we got to experience each other fresh again and we got to discover, had to ask questions again about, you know, what is your favorite ice cream and where would you like to go on a vacation? You a honeymoon, like vacation and stuff like that. Stuff that you think, you know, that just gets kind of pushed off to the side because we'd been together for so long you think, you know, but I discovered I really didn't. And here I was, I got to rediscover a whole new woman that I fell in love with all over again. And it was amazing. I've never heard of such a thing.

28:06                                     Is there some sort of idea? Yeah, I want us to do that. Try it. Great. Well I think it's a great idea in any longterm marriage to do because no matter what, you're going to have a storm in your marriage of varying lengths and intensity at least once and through that you're both going to change and you're just going to change over time anyway. So like you said, there were things like where's your favorite vacation spot and things like that. You might've known those things about her before, but those things had changed. So even though you thought you knew it was Hawaii, now it's actually Colorado because she loves the mountains all of a sudden. And you know, so I mean that's an, uh, an amazing opportunity, like you said, to be able to reconnect on a different plane and not give in and not have the assumption that you know all about this person.

28:52                                     It kind of makes me think of the um, oh, what's the song, Jimmy Buffet Song about how it's like they put that ad out and then, and then do you like Pina coladas? Oh, who is it? Okay, sorry, but the whole song though is about they, how they rediscover each other and that's such an essential thing in a marriage. And the fact that you made it intentional that you agreed on that together and you did it intentionally, even though it was really difficult, you found it difficult and you really went through that challenge of it together. It sounds very connecting. Yeah. I love that. You need to trademark that idea.

29:28                                     Well, so I've used it with a couple of other couples that have come to me for, for help and uh, and they found it beneficial is with the ones that have actually implemented it and actually given it a shot, have found it very rewarding. So for all you listeners out there that that's a Freebie,

29:45                                     that's a great one. I mean we just had a podcast a couple of podcasts ago with two women who both had been gotten married very young and one of the marriages last and one didn't. And we were talking about how people changed and they, you know, were weren't able to reconnect after the change. And, you know, having sort of an idea of knowing that that is going to happen and having a way to reconnect with it is huge because I think a lot of people, they don't think someone else should change and they don't allow for it.

30:15                                     Right? So now, so now it's feeling a change. Like I've, I've, I've taken a new perspective like change is constant. And um, and so now we're looking at the change in our life is one of our kids are getting ready. So my youngest son is going into high school now. He'll be a freshman this year. So I've got four years to get ready for him to be gone. And then what? Yeah. And then, and then, uh, my wife and I will be entering into the empty nest syndrome, which, um, you know, through counseling, I see a lot of couples come in that are, that are just going into that stage that they haven't, they haven't prepared for. They had event anticipated. What that, what effect that has on their relationships. So, um, so my wife and I are, I've already started talking about what do we want our life to look like five years from now, 60 years from now, seven years from now, so the kids can because what happens, what happened, what I've seen, what I've witnessed is couples will get surprised by the last child, moves out of the house and then you have to strangers staring at each other with one, one of the spouses finds themselves not, not, not feeling like they're needed around anymore.

31:31                                     They don't have a purpose because there are no children around and the other spouse may, may or may not be still working, but the other spouse has been occupied to such an extent that they haven't been noticed for a long time. So. So it creates a conflict within and, and, and I just, I just don't see the need. It's an unnecessary conflict that, that I want to avoid in my marriage. And so we're trying, we're having those conversations today and um, and I don't know where we're going to be. I mean, I mentioned earlier we have, we have a child with special needs and he's going to be around to some extent, but we can plan around that too. You know, for me the most important thing is, is the relationships that I have within, within my family and uh, you know, work, you know, I work with, with, with other people, with other couples and stuff, but I can work around my family conflicts so far as they can be anticipated, can be negotiated.

32:25                                     There was a banker in me. Jab conflicts are just opportunities to negotiate something. Like what? Like how can we work this out, right? There's, there's a resolution we resolve to resolve is kind of our motto, right? We resolved where there's a here for somebody. We're gonna always gonna get what you want, but we're not gonna like screw you either. So just stay with us here. Like you have to trust every. We're going to work and everyone's best friend. Okay. Positive intention on both sides. That's right. Everybody wants to negotiate. It's open. We all want what's best for everybody here. And, and also we try not to get personal or get, take cheap shots with each other. Right. There's gonna be times when, you know, when, when we're angry, when, when I noticed that, you know, if it's one of the kids when I noticed that they're just hot and bothered and I'm like, you know, go take a time out.

33:17                                     Like you got to go. Or there's even times when I have to tell Connie like, not now, just just give me like, like I'm all, like, I've used all my words for today. That's one of her favorite, that I know more words today, just leave me alone and we'll get back, do this. And that's respectful because. Because really if we kept pushing on the subject, I would, I would lose my patients in and I would probably say something I regret and then they would just have to be cleaned up later. So nothing gets achieved. That's why I try not to talk to jeff at all when I'm hungry because I get super hungry and things go wild situation. Um, when was it last? It was just last week. It was, I think it was last Thursday or so. Um, Connie wanted me to do something we had, we had, I had done something, I had done something that she disagreed with.

34:09                                     Okay. I had eaten something that you didn't want me to do and she claimed it was bad for me. I was, I didn't disagree that it was bad for me, but I eat it anyway. Right. So it's very naughty of you. Look, I was okay with it, but she wanted to protect it through. I had resolved this would look so, but she was very concerned about this, about this. So. And she wanted, she didn't, she didn't feel like I was taking the situation seriously. Okay. Or maybe her concerns about the situation. Right? Not necessarily the situation by her feelings about it. So just saying whatever, put that one out there for you to wrap your mind around it. I recognized that she was very concerned and I, and, and um, and I, I explained to her how I had resolved this issue within myself, but I also recognize that she was still very concerned and I encouraged her to go figure it out. Right. So she had resources I guess.

35:10                                     So she, uh, she didn't appreciate that very much. So we had a, we had a no talking phase for a period of time, which is very uncomfortable. Jeff, you ever had one of those silent treatment? Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't like that very much. So of course we had to come back and resolve to figure it out. Right. Which is, I had to acknowledge that her concern was, was a concern or are valid. And in, of course it was, I knew it was, but the key word here, it was absolutely valid, but I also had to let her know that, that, that I could only take it so far for, I couldn't resolve her anxiety over it. So, so when we reach that point I had to say, look, like look like I've, I know that you are worried about this. And I respect that, but I can only do so much. Like at some point this anxiety is yours and I'm going to let you keep that. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And then she kept it and then we were good. But then she. But she knew that I had that. I acknowledged that Tara talks a lot about this from the standpoint of she has a cup analogy that she talks about. So

36:16                                     the idea is in the, in this situation is that that Connie was giving you some of her anxiety. She was pouring it into your cup and what you did was exactly what I tell people to do is that you said, okay, I can hold it for and, and, and I could validate it for her and, but I don't have to keep it. It's not my anxiety. So then you pour it out and she has a little bit less than you have a little bit less, but you don't have to fix it. And I think that that's something I see men that I work with struggle a lot, is that women often want to talk about our feelings. So that you can validate them, but we don't expect you to take them on, but we do want you to acknowledge them, but that's really hard for a lot of men because you go straight to that.

36:58                                     Well, if I acknowledge it, then I need to have a solution for it, which is just how men think and that's, you know that that's just the way it is. But the relief is actually just visualize it's a cup and you pour it out. You don't have to keep it and like you said, you gave it back to her and that's hers. She, she needs her feelings to work through because that's what's going to make her grow and that's what we need to do for each other and our relationships. And then they become so much less of a burden. That's a huge thing that I see couples struggle with is they feel like they have to take each other on and you don't. But you can support each other in the growth.

37:32                                     Yes. But it sounds like you weren't. You were just moving your cup around. She kept trying to for it. That's exactly in your life and now she's getting frustrated because you're doing this. No, you're exactly right, Jeff. My tendency is like, that's not my. That's not my cup. It's not my water. I guess your analogy, not my water for it right now, so it takes a little while. It took me a while to realize like I really want to talk to my wife because I enjoy that, so I needed to take a little bit of it, acknowledge it and then say, okay, like pour it out. You can. You can handle the rest when I'm happy to do that for her and that's the way we work together. Now we resolve to resolve like we had a conflict and it was unnecessary because it really was at the end of the day, it was nothing that we couldn't overcome but chill. We were curious what you ate. Was it a Krispy Kreme donut and Oreos? No oreos with heck. She keeps buying Oreos. I wish you. I wish you would die. Yeah, you do. Was it a snickers? Snickers Brownie? Expected you to bring it to the snickers.

38:44                                     Alright, so it will not be known what can aid, but we all are imagining different things. The next podcast we will be revealed donuts, Bacon inside this, so you can imagine whatever it is right now, but yeah, I think, but I think that's a really. But I really liked the example you brought up because you can generally do, you can generalize that to anything is that you'd all resolved what you had done within yourself and you were fine with it, but she wasn't fine with it and she needed, even though you didn't need to change your action, she needed you to validate that she wasn't fine with it and understand where her concerns about it were coming from and then she was okay. And that was the process.

39:26                                     Yeah, yeah,

39:29                                     yeah. Easier said than done, but also very effective.

39:33                                     Dave, when, when done it brought us closer. Well, and you knew that her concerns weren't yours. Ultimately there were her spit. You can hold them for her for a little bit. Yes. And, and the holding is where people connect. Right? And how many divorces have gone down with just this same kind of thing? They just get. It just escalates. Repeat, right? Yeah. Because then they get defensive and they're. I can't, I can't explain how many fights have gone have gone. Even even from my own experience. How many times have we fought over? I'm not putting the laundry away.

40:09                                     The old laundry. That's the worst part is putting you in a way. And I didn't know I was supposed to put the laundry away, but apparently I didn't do it right. It's right there. Didn't you see it? Yeah. It didn't bother me. So. Right. So. So I need to be in tuned to these things. And also it's, it's, it's incumbent, I think upon upon the other party to say like, you know, I left the laundry out for you. It'd be nice if you put it away right? Because as men we need to be instructed, told, guided, suggested as the case may be. So we learned that. I mean, we're learning that in, in protecting your manhood to. Right? We need to be told, we like to be told directly what to do, left men left to themselves to visit just talking about sports, the weather right in the news. So when I get men in the room, like it takes a while to get. I have to ask direct questions and counseling, like, tell me, you know, about x, y, z. tell me about your, you know, your, your deepest fear. Tell me about, you know, what is it that really keeps you up at night? And usually the first answer that comes out of a man's mouth is not the truth because they'll tell me about, oh, I'm worried about going broke and I'm,

41:30                                     it's usually money, right? Money. Everybody says money first

41:34                                     thing. But really what are you afraid of? And it comes down to when you get a, you know, a real, a real, um, client that's really participating and really engaged. It comes down to, am I good enough? Am I good enough? Am I good enough husband and my level right? Am I measuring up? And that has nothing to do with money. Yeah. Because it tried to measure it by money. But it's like, what if you didn't have money? Right? Measure it. What would you be worried about that? It's a question that I asked somebody, one of our other podcasts. I said, have you ever asked somebody just like magic one, you got every billion dollars. We'd now. He was talking about sports at the time and he was talking about how they work and I go, okay, well why did they play the sports? And they're like, well, they want to make the money. Okay, well magic one, you make the money. Now you got, are you still going to play the sport to you? You're just going to stop right now. You're probably still going to play the sports because you love it. You love it, right? It's got nothing to do with the money.

42:32                                     Right? Goes back to that sense of purpose you're talking about earlier. Can that you went through your own process of finding that for yourself that just because you're good at something doesn't mean that's what fulfills you and being good at something and getting that social reward that we all think is meaning, which is a, I'm being recognized by getting money for this or getting accolades for this are being noticed for this isn't necessarily what gives you that sense of purpose where you really are fulfilling who you are. You're stripping all this stuff down as you illustrated earlier. Yeah,

43:04                                     and you mentioned earlier talking about people thinking that maybe you're going to be a fraud if you go do this and that seems to be a common thing. I've heard. I've heard and seen with other things and actually just just yesterday I was listening to a podcast with Scott Adams and he said that one of the things, he's the guy who made Dilbert, so one of the things that got out and said is he was. He was talking to somebody on the show and he said, this is a bit of advice. He always tells younger people and he says, you won't get this until you get older, but I'm going to tell you this advice right now. He goes, nobody has it all together and everybody's faking it no matter what. And then I've also heard like interviews and stuff for people, like even like Tom Hanks, I mean one of the best actors of all time and even he feels like at some point people are going to figure me out that I'm not really that I'm a fraud out here doing this.

44:01                                     Yeah, there's actually a term for it. It's called imposter syndrome. Yeah. But what do you think everybody for it? You know, people, a lot of people experience it and the guy who was on the on on Scott Adam show was talking about how he's like, I just come from a fake it till you make it attitude. And the, what they were trying to say was, look, if you just think that you are it, you become it. Yeah. There is no difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fake it. Fake it til you make it. Is, is. It's a strategy. I hope it only works long term, short term, I mean

44:37                                     faking it because then it becomes a habit, but it becomes very destructive because then you don't even know if you're faking it or you're reeling it. Yeah.

44:49                                     Prefer more. Just that, you know, just do it. Even if it's uncomfortable,

44:53                                     just do it. Just do it. Yeah. That's a great speech. If you ever heard that on youtube, there's a speech called just do it was before the Nike campaign. It's an excellent speech. You should check it out. You recommend our listeners just do it. Alright. Speech Art Williams.

45:06                                     Yeah, just do it. Okay. So I will give myself one more, one more example of a reading of reading my spouse and again, getting in, getting in sync and figuring out what works and what works. I. And it seems like we remember of course our mistakes more than more than our victories, but um, well because the victories were just supposed to happen.

45:29                                     Well you learn more from your mistakes anyway. Expectations are right. I'm going to get it right here.

45:34                                     Yeah. So, um, so yesterday I was, I stopped into a market street to get a cup of coffee and uh, and I knew that when we went grocery shopping on Sunday, just a couple of things got added to the list I'm on right after we went grocery shopping and I, and I knew from experience that that really irritates my wife, that we just went grocery shopping and then already like two or three things are added to it. So as I'm in market street, I just strolled over and I picked up celine. I picked up some vitamins and I picked up, um, some, uh, some shakes, drinks that were on the list. And then as I got in the car I put him in the passenger seat and I took a picture of him and I texted him to her and I said took care of it. And then she sent me back the text with all the emojis that had hearts and Smiley.

46:25                                     Oh yes. Because you were validating her need, even if it wasn't your need to have the things that was Sunday because it's already on the list that I knew it was getting taken care of, but that's not her. Her brain work. She wants that checked and then that makes her feel like that's accomplishes and have to worry about it because it's still hanging overhead and you recognize that and even though it wasn't yours and you fulfilled it and I bet she felt you were a hero here for that, right? Yeah.

46:58                                     So anyway, that was good. Yep.

47:02                                     Let's end with that victory. Thank you so much for coming in today. It was great talking to you about this and I'm hope to hear more about your workshop and as soon as we know a date will post that.

47:12                                     Okay. Thank you Tara. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks. Pleasure being here. I appreciate the time and I will let you know when, uh, when the workshop's coming. Awesome. Let me know if I can ever be on again or if you need me. We definitely will. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

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Jeff Harrison