Does Money Really Cause Most Divorces? - Russell Baxter, LPC


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Speaker 2:                           00:00:47               On today's show, we interview Russell Baxter. He's an LPC with a private practice in the Dallas Fort Worth area. He's in the process of writing a book called sharing your heart, sharing your treasure. People

Speaker 3:                           00:01:02               desperate to talk about money. It's something that we don't talk about in society and in our culture. People are embarrassed to talk about it. They're embarrassed to talk about their financial decisions and what kind of things their their plans are or any of that stuff, how they're saving or if they're saving and because it's such a huge source source of shame for most people. Once they feel that they don't want to talk about it and some people are more apt to talk about their sex lives and their final area specifically. We need to be able to talk to our friends, family and good ideas because it is about our lives and about our future, about our legacy for our children, and so if we're doing something wrong, it'd probably be good to talk to somebody about it. It be seen as somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. Well, let me go ahead and ruin it for everybody. Most people don't know what they're doing. Most people have no. It's really sad. One of the lines in my book is I want to retrain our hearts explore instead of.

Speaker 4:                           00:02:16               And that is really at the heart of this because if I am more interested in understanding why generosity is important to you and you're more interested in understanding why savings and important to me, then we are going to have a much better conversation than if I am just saying what's really important to me. And clearly you don't care. It's really cool to see once we've created a budget. Okay.

Speaker 3:                           00:02:41               Created a standard for that. Both people agreed to that. We compromised that. The arguments lasted a lot shorter. Let's get started.

Speaker 1:                           00:03:03               Hi and welcome to make more love not war. This is Terah Harrison, a licensed professional counselor and relationship expert. This is her husband Jeff Harrison. Have no qualifications whatsoever. Just a normal dude. Today we're here with Russell Baxter. He's in the process of writing a book called sharing your heart, sharing your treasure. I love the title.

Speaker 4:                           00:03:28               Yeah. Is, uh, it, it just Kinda came to me one day. Uh, it was mostly just about being able to shoot and realized that I wanted to be able to share my heart better with my wife. And I realized that money was one of the best ways that we do that.

Speaker 1:                           00:03:41               So you said best ways that we do that. You were already doing it the at that time?

Speaker 4:                           00:03:46               Yeah. Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to write the book was because of the transformative, transformative power that it's had in my marriage, just to bring us closer. One of the first things that we did when we got married was pay off all my student loan debt that came along with getting my masters in license and all that stuff. And what license do you have? Oh, I'm an LPC, a licensed professional counselor,

Speaker 1:                           00:04:09               licensed professional counselor. Practicing and great

Speaker 4:                           00:04:11               on grapevine. Yes. And uh, and so as we did that for the first year of our marriage, we paid off $45,000 in a year. Wow. It was, it was a really great experience because it forced us to talk. It forced us to be on the same page, a forced me to learn how to sacrifice for something bigger than myself. It had a lot of really positive marital impact and it all stemmed from us being able to focus on finances and so I figured, well, this is something that we could share with others.

Speaker 1:                           00:04:46               Yes. Well, tell me more about this process for you. What was your relationship with money before you came into the marriage?

Speaker 4:                           00:04:56               Uh, well, my relationship with money or with money before the marriage was very poor. I just assumed that money was there for my consumption and that if I had it in the checking account, then that means that I could spend it on something, uh, which I'm finding is a very common thing. So it doesn't make me feel very lonely in that. But as I was also really selfish and shortsighted and when you start to see all the different, um, personality and existential traits that are impacted by money, it really, it's quite astounding. And so like for instance, I was, I, I've grown up very much about instant gratification. Shortsighted. I want to feel good right now. And I see that shows in my money because I don't make decisions for the future. I never thought about emergencies, I never thought about, well, what could happen if my car breaks down? I was just thinking about how do I have fun, right. So you're just a little hedonist, just impulsive. Right. And uh, and so my wife though is on the other end of the spectrum where she has trouble enjoying money and makes her feel selfish or you're responsible to enjoy what we've worked for. And so we create this really great balance that draws both of us to the middle where she's learning to enjoy what we've earned and I'm learning to control it. And it's a, it's a really great dynamic.

Speaker 1:                           00:06:28               Yeah. I'll let you said earlier, as a child you were really shortsighted. Went, just think about money as it's there. So I'm going to spend it. How has that model by her parents?

Speaker 4:                           00:06:39               Uh, well, my parents, they probably tried to talk to me about it. Um, but I was very stubborn so I thought I had the answers. I thought I knew what I was doing. And so, um, uh, God has really taught me a lot about, um, being humble because life is a great teacher and pain is a great teacher and so I've experienced both in full, full measure and it's taught me a lot of great things and that my parents probably trying to teach me but that I just didn't have ears to hear. So with my parents. Yeah, sorry to answer it, interrupt my parents. Um, we never really talked about too much about their finances, which would have been a really great modeling tool for, for my finances later. But yeah.

Speaker 1:                           00:07:27               Yeah. So in your family it wasn't really something that you talked about, you didn't have family meetings and let's talk about our budget or anything like that. So you really didn't know what to do with money and you just kinda did what felt good.

Speaker 4:                           00:07:38               Right? Not that I can remember anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 1:                           00:07:42               You're like, sorry, mom and dad did may have forgotten. It's very possible that. And through your conversations with your wife did, was she able to talk about what her family dynamic around money was?

Speaker 4:                           00:08:00               Yeah, we, we've, we've, I mean actually her, her father has been a big influence on both of us. There are actually really good friends with us, so it, uh, they, he's taught me a lot and taught me about investing and about saving and about all the things that she learned. Um, but with the balance of my free spirited, you know, so, and not the fear based money management. So

Speaker 1:                           00:08:27               tell me more about fear based money management. What is that? Well, it

Speaker 4:                           00:08:30               comes back to I'm a scarcity mindset or a poverty mindset where I feel like I'm never gonna have enough. I'm always going to be lacking. Um, and that, I mean, I've seen actually clients in my own practice where they were actually financially millionaires, but they were so riddled with fear that they couldn't enjoy any of it. I mean, they had the paid for home, paid for cars, um, and money in the bank and retirement more than enough, but they were so riddled with the what if's and the what could happen or that they weren't able to enjoy any of it. Uh, and that both spouses rarely tend to be that way, and so it tends to create a lot of conflict in that relationship, you know, because he thinks he's being, he or she thinks they're being responsible and the other person thinks they're being stingy. So. Yeah. And I could see how.

Speaker 5:                           00:09:23               Do you also think that even though somebody may have millions of dollars in the bank, but all their other friends have $10,000,000 in the bank? Yeah.

Speaker 4:                           00:09:31               Comparison is a big problem too. Yeah, absolutely. Um, it doesn't necessarily impact fear, but it does. Uh, it does create a sense of competition and discontentment and discontentments one of the biggest obstacles to managing money well, because you're never going to actually make enough and you're never, you're never going to have enough money if you're discontent and it's all, you're always going to be unhappy. And so, um, yeah, they pop. That answers your question.

Speaker 5:                           00:10:02               What do you do with somebody who's having these kinds of issues? What do you try to point them towards?

Speaker 4:                           00:10:07               I'm practicing gratitude when I get somebody to start practicing gratitude. That is one of the buildings that are building blocks to contentment in my mind, where if, if I'm constantly looking at what I don't have or what is missing or what I or what somebody else has, then I'm not looking at the things in my life that I should be thankful for. And it sounds simple, it sounds cliche, but even getting somebody to write down or our share three things every day with their spouse, what they're thankful for, what they're happy that they have, um, it, it does start to change where they're spending their time looking. Because if I'm constantly looking at the things that are missing and not at the things that I have, then I'm never going to be happy. Yeah. There's an infinite amount of things you're missing. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 4:                           00:10:55               Yeah. I mean, it's a great story to illustrate that point where I was at my house the other day with my wife and she was worried about our grass. We had bought a bunch of sod last year and put it down and she was worried that it was dying and I go, I didn't even know there was a problem and so we walked outside and, and I'm looking at all the green grass that we have and she finds the few spots that are dead and she's going, but look at all these spots. These are problematic and I'm going, I, I didn't even notice those spots. I, I'm so glass half full that I'm looking at all the green and assuming everything's fine. Right? And so finding that balance and perspective is really, really important.

Speaker 5:                           00:11:37               I just listened to a podcast from James out the chair that he had a Jay Jacobson there. He's a author and he just finished a book that was a thousand thank yous and basically the gist of the book is he went around to a thousand people, thank them for his cup of coffee. Wow. It took. So he went down to, you know, you think the obvious ones, the farmers that made the beans and all that, but he went down to the people who made the steel for the truck, the people who made this, who made the stop signs, the people who made the roads, the asphalt, the everything. He went to it. So he found a thousand people that were a piece of getting him his cup of coffee. Wow. That's intense. Yeah. I don't know that I could go that far, but it is a good. Is a practiced skill so that he's got a lot of practice. It's the point. The point is that the gratitude and what it takes to get any kind of thing takes a lot of people and it's. There's a lot of things I have to go. Absolutely right. And perfect for anything to come even to your cup of coffee. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:                           00:12:43               I was thinking about your story about the grass and I was thinking of you were, if I was your wife and you were telling me the thing about the grass, I might get a little frustrated and be like, yeah, but there is grass here we need to do something about. So do you see that coming up where there could be an over focus on gratitude or people are actually not getting stuff done in their life? Well

Speaker 4:                           00:13:06               that is a great point. I think, uh, and that's where I kind of say that balance of the dynamics because my natural tendency, and I know this about myself, is I'm, I'm don't go around looking for problems because that tends to be more work.

Speaker 1:                           00:13:20               Okay. So if you don't see them, if I'm not

Speaker 4:                           00:13:24               getting for them, they don't exist. And whereas my wife is constantly making lists and constantly looking for things. And so, um, w the biggest key to that is us both knowing our strengths and weaknesses and knowing that when she comes to me with things to do, um, to not just get frustrated because I got to do work now, but to realize she's challenging me, she wants me to be better. Um, and I do the same thing with her, but in the opposite direction I get, I challenged her to go do something fun and to spend money on herself and to do nothing. Right. And I challenged her to be at rest and, and so we both used to combat each other in those situations. But once we started to recognize our strengths and weaknesses, it made it a lot easier to be able to, um, grow and see those as growing opportunities to change my character and to become a better person as opposed to devolve into arguments.

Speaker 1:                           00:14:30               I see that with couples a lot and I know jeff and I have had a lot of those conversations and being able to accept each other's differences and know that those are actually really helpful and, and the growth for both of you. And not see growth as a negative thing, going back to gratitude and changing the way that you're looking things, but being grateful for the other person's differences because they challenge you.

Speaker 6:                           00:14:52               But I mean, admittedly it's difficult to get there. How did you and your wife gets to that point where you could see the differences as something positive and not like, I need you to be like me because I needed to be in my comfort zone. And that's, I mean, that's a difficult transition. It is. I think

Speaker 4:                           00:15:07               having, having the ability to be okay with weaknesses and the vulnerability that comes with that and saying, you know, I don't have to have it all together and in fact, I know I don't. Um, but I see something that I want in you. Uh, that was where we kind of started having and creating a safe home environment where we're free and comfortable with the idea of being weak and flawed people. Right? I'm not having to put on a show for her. She's not having to put a show on for me. We can both recognize our weaknesses and be okay with that. And um,

Speaker 6:                           00:15:46               yeah, so that starts with self acceptance is what you're saying. The biggest thing is to be able to look at yourself and say, yeah, I have growth opportunities, but that doesn't say anything else about me other than that I'm human just like everybody else, what I. and honestly I kinda just grew as I started to trust the process and I started to

Speaker 4:                           00:16:05               put my toe in the water and say, okay, I'll give this a shot. And then I started to see how good it felt to be proactive and to not procrastinate and to, uh, to be organized and you know,

Speaker 6:                           00:16:18               not to sound like a slob or anything, but it's, I really have grown a lot because of marriage and

Speaker 4:                           00:16:24               um, and so is my wife. And

Speaker 6:                           00:16:27               so how far along are you on the book? Right now? I'm about two thirds or one third of the way through. I mean, I, it, it's also a strength building exercise because a, it's a, it's a vulnerability issue of, you know, putting yourself out there. They're

Speaker 4:                           00:16:43               on paper and saying, this is something that's important to me, but there's so many good self help books out. There are nonfiction books out there that, uh, it's really easy to want to compare yourself or to say, you know, this isn't going to be good enough or this isn't going to really help people are, you know, and having that resistance that comes into your mind. In fact, I was just reading a book called the war of art and it talks about the resistance that we feel when we're being creative and pursuing our purpose and the voices that come into our mind that talked to us about how we're going to fail and how we're going to not be enough. And so that's, it's, it's coming along. So another growth opportunity, right? Yeah. But I mean, I haven't been teaching the class I've been teaching. I created a three hour class based on this subject and so I'm trying to take that material and put it into a book that's just takes time. But explaining that class was a. well, I knew I do a three hour ceu for other lpcs and a social workers and any other, but he else he wants to come. Um, I've been doing it through grace counseling. They have cu so that they provide for people and education. Continuing Education. Yeah. And um, and so I do a three hour class on that. At that point,

Speaker 1:                           00:18:04               did you find any interesting experiences you had so far? Teaching a class that's a, you know, going from doing kind of being used as a counselor one to two, maybe two hour session and then you're teaching a three hour class where it's all eyes on you and you're responsible for the, all of the material and being entertaining and all of that kind of stuff. Did you come up with any interesting growth areas that

Speaker 4:                           00:18:30               I. making assumptions is the biggest one. Trying, uh, there, there are a lot of patterns and a lot of archetypes and people, but there's still going to be somebody that has a situation that I hadn't heard before. And so to not just assume that all of my answers are the answers that are going to fit everybody else is probably the most important thing that I've learned. Um, because there's always, every home is different and every marriage is different. And so for me to think that everything that I have right that I'm going to write is going to solve everybody's problem is, is a little too much. So

Speaker 1:                           00:19:06               yeah, knowing that your book, maybe there's some percentage, let's say 10, 15 percent of people who read it that are like, this is, does not help me at all. But that means that you have 80, 85. I'm not the greatest mathematician, 85 or 90 percent of people that it may help. So it's still worth it even though it may not actually reach everybody.

Speaker 4:                           00:19:29               Well, and really the other thing that I'm seeing is that people are desperate to talk about money we have. It's something that we don't talk about in society and in our culture, people are embarrassed to talk about it. They're embarrassed to talk about their financial decisions and what kinds of things, um, their, their plans are or any of that stuff or how they're saving or if they're saving. Um, and because it's such a huge source source of shame for most people and once they, once they feel that they don't want to talk about it and some people are more apt to talk about their sex lives and their finances and it's, it's really shouldn't be that way. And in fact, I said to the class sometimes where some spouses are more comfortable feeling seeing each other naked than they are. I'm talking about the checkbook and I thought, well, this is, that should, that should not be that way. Right? We should not be that way and we should feel comfortable to talk about money because shame hates it. When we talk about take away the power of takeaway, the power. And that's the one thing I really have seen in the class as people leave with a more comfortable perspective on being able to talk about it. And I, I really am challenging myself to be able to give people more of a language to be able to have conversations about money in their marriage because it does, it's lacking. There's not any. Yeah.

Speaker 1:                           00:20:54               Yeah. And I think that when you have some kind of construct when you, when you have a plan for it, just to like having an outline for your book, you know, as you're writing it, it's really just gives you a place to start because like you said, nobody, you didn't learn how to talk about money when you were growing up in. Most of us did it because our parents didn't talk about money with us. It was something that you just knew you had it or you didn't. And and also we, we had that feeling that it defined us and what does it mean about us if we can't make it or not good with it or, or are fearful of it or all of that kind of stuff. So just having a starting point is really helpful.

Speaker 4:                           00:21:31               Right. I want, it's really interesting as I've been telling people, I'm writing this book and they asked me what it's about and then just seeing their responses when I tell them and then the conversation that ensues afterwards. Uh, it's just really interesting because it, it's an immediate ice breaker for most people and then they become, they open up in the air a little bit vulnerable. Um, but then I could still, uh, I'm used to living and operating vulnerability, but my wife, she will be in conversations with friends. She goes, why do you keep talking about money with these meetings? And I'm like, well, if they wanted, they asked me about the book and uh, and it just, uh, I want to be able to open up an atmosphere for people to feel comfortable talking about stuff because it, in no other area, I'm sorry that's not true, but in this area specifically, we need to be able to talk to our friends and our family and, and get ideas because it is about our livelihoods and about our future and about our legacy for our children. And so if we're doing something wrong, it'd probably be good to talk to somebody about it. And we're so afraid to be seen as somebody who doesn't know what they're doing. Well, let me go ahead and ruin it for everybody. Most people don't know what they're doing. Most people have no idea. And it's really sad.

Speaker 7:                           00:22:48               You know, one thing that I think is interesting that I've noticed, just people who have more money on the higher level, they, uh, their circle of friends, they seem to talk about money and investing and things a little bit more than the people who don't have money. I mean obviously they have more to invest. That's true. And they also have something more to talk about because then they can talk about different deals and this is what's going down. And while I know this thing and I know that, um, have you noticed anything that that's, you know, the different socioeconomics that's makes it more difficult or not?

Speaker 4:                           00:23:28               I think it has more. They have more comfort with the topic and in they talk about it more often with their friends because it is more like a hobby. And an interest to them, um, it's not just their livelihood, but uh, there's no public education for this. There's nothing in high schools. People are learning the quadratic equation before they learn how to check balance a checkbook. I'm not that anybody writes checks anymore, but you can also write thank you cards, but that's great. And so it is, there is a big difference in socioeconomic because they're, the parents who manage money well tend to teach their kids how to manage money well. And there is no societal standard where people are you, you go to, you go to public school and you learn, um, a certain standard, but there is nothing for that in personal finance. And so it's kind of just wing it. And if you don't, if nobody teaches you, you just have to make it up as you go.

Speaker 7:                           00:24:29               Go. Um, it kind of reminds me of the Book Rich Dad, poor dad where he has his real, his real dad is a professor and he's all about, you know, education smarts and academics and all this kind of stuff. But he was broke where he had his, his friend's dad was, didn't go to college, had multiple businesses, and had a bunch of people who had college educations working for him. Absolutely. And he, that's where he kinda learned the process of, Oh, okay, this is how you actually make money and this is how it works. It's not about just grinding it out all the time and it's putting other people that you leverage other people's basically what he's doing.

Speaker 4:                           00:25:11               No, absolutely we. And that's why I really want to challenge parents to be able to talk to their kids about it. It's not, uh, it's, it's not something you want them figuring out on their own, especially with the fact that um, credit card companies are now. I mean, you go to any college orientation for instance, and you'll probably find a credit card company. They're trying to recruit 18 year olds, um, with zero percent APR credit cards. And I mean, I got stung with one of those when I was 19, 20 and I ended up defaulting on it because I didn't know what was going on. I don't know how it worked. Um, you know, I had creditors calling me know and I'm 20 and I'm thankful that my parents told me to figure it out because if they had just wiped it out and paid it for me, I would have never learned any kind of lesson. That kind of pain taught me that I didn't want to mess with this stuff anymore. You know? It was a good experience.

Speaker 1:                           00:26:06               Yeah. What I'm also thinking about as you talked about shame and money earlier about how culturally what we have defines us, which of course is connected to the money that we need to buy, the things we have and just the bigger movement of being able to use money as more of a way to connect, like you're talking about using it by sharing your heart with each other. By figuring that out together instead of feeling like, okay, I'm having problems in my marriage so I'm going to go out and buy something for myself that makes me feel better. I'm actually going to do the opposite of sort of addictive behavior which is going out and buying something and make yourself feel better. I'm going to connect. And so it's really a reframe to what money even means. It doesn't mean you make yourself feel better with it. It's the connection that feels

Speaker 4:                           00:27:00               good. It's going for things of substance as opposed to instant gratification. And, uh, and there's so many different illustrations of that in life, but the one I use a lot is, um, you know, if I eat a donut, for instance, it's going to feel really good in the moment, but at the end of the day I'm going to still be hungry and it's not really very satisfying as if I had a real meal that might not give me as much excitement and um, you know, be as an entertaining, but it'll be filling and it'll last and that it will not make me feel bad about myself, you know? Uh, and, and it's the same with money. I mean, learning how to connect with your spouse, uh, with money is not easy. And I make that point very clear in the book that this is not an easy thing to do. Um, but it is essential because marriage isn't easy. And anybody who would tell you otherwise is lying because it is not, it is meant to be a challenge us and say we have. That's why we have vows for happened to because they do mean something. Yeah.

Speaker 1:                           00:28:12               And earlier you talked about getting started. How do people get started with these kinds of conversations?

Speaker 4:                           00:28:19               Well, I, in the book I illustrate there's a, uh, I do like a pyramid basically with five different levels and the bottom level of starts us off and that's, we talk about priorities and principles. What is important to us? What is not important to us? Is it okay for us to borrow money? Is it okay for us to borrow money from family? Are we going to loan money to our kids? Are we going, you know, different things like that. Is it okay for us to lease a car? Is that, do we want to have a paid for home or do we not want to have a paid for home? Um, is it important for us to be generous? I mean, these are all really important factors that need to be discussed in marriage in general. But as in relation to money too, and these are conversations that most couples may not have had,

Speaker 1:                           00:29:02               maybe I couldn't even think of these questions. Right? Right. Where did they even come up with the questions? If we haven't talked about money before and don't even know what it really means or what it doesn't mean, how do you, how do you come up with these questions?

Speaker 4:                           00:29:13               And, and to people who are very different, may have two very different priorities and principles and this is a great time for us to start learning to compromise, you know, for somebody they may be really generous and they love to give money and the other person may really love saving money. And if that's the case, well we need to find a balance between that and we kind of move on from there. And we find plans and plans are our goals. We, when we have goals, my goal would be want to be debt free in two years, you know, and um, or I want to have a paid for home by the time I'm 45 or I want to, you know, these are financial goals. They're tangible or quantifiable, they are date, they have a time stamp on them and so they, they're measurable and then we take that and we look at plans and we make a plan.

Speaker 4:                           00:30:03               How do I get to that goal? Well, if in order for me to be debt free in two years, I would need to have pay $500 extra on that debt every month. Right? And so, or that's just the example. But uh, and then after that we would build a budget based on those needs, those expectations and those, those principles. And most people would just like to sit down and they will just put it in a few categories and most people don't even know, really don't know how to make it an actual trackable budget. Um, and I actually teach this in my counseling practice too. I'll get cut because I use the budget as a great tool to maybe if people are having trouble communicating, I say, well, have you guys done a budget together and get them to sit down and really get you to. And it really does, but it really does.

Speaker 4:                           00:30:52               And it really gets them to sit down and say, well, it's really important for me to be able to have money to spend on me. And I'm like, okay, well there's nothing wrong with that. There's definitely nothing wrong with you wanting to have money for you. And I'm not. I mean, I'm definitely big on, we call it fund money in our home where it was just money that I can do whatever I want with and you can't tell me anything about it, right? Um, as long as it's legal and, and, and so we build that budget and we'd come up with all these categories based on our priorities and, and we look at our, what our plan is and if we needed that extra $500, well then I need to start taking it from other places. Maybe maybe we're spending too much on cable and eating out which eating out is the number, the number one thing that I've been finding that people spend way too much on that they don't even know that they're spending.

Speaker 4:                           00:31:43               Yeah. Starbucks and quick trip. I mean, you'd be surprised how many people go in and to Quik trip every like three, four times a week and they buy a drink to buy a snack and I call it the death by a thousand cuts because all of these little six or $7 transactions add up over the month and by the end of it you've spent $200 that you didn't know you were spending. You know, we would all have a pain point with the $200 purchase, but $6 so you know, whatever, that we don't really even feel it. And so, so we take those things and we start to actually set limits in order to get our money to go where we wanted to go and do what we want it to do. But you would never be able to do that if you and your spouse have an already agreed on that so

Speaker 1:                           00:32:29               well. And going back to that first tier on your pyramid, one thing you brought up already brought up in my mind. Wow, this might be a really hard thing for couples work through because there's dreams involved, which is what you said about one person wants to be generous and one person wants to save and so I can imagine that a lot of people really get stuck at that bottom tier where you don't. It's, it's hard to move up into planning stage or making goals because you have this huge dream. Like if I really wanted to be able to donate to all of these different organizations that I felt really pulled to and I feel and I felt like, well, money should just flow through me and out because I need to. This is what my purposes in life. And Jeff was like, no, we need to focus on our family and saving for our family. That would take quite a bit of working through to get to, okay, how can we have a compromise on that so that we're respecting each other's dreams?

Speaker 4:                           00:33:26               Right? Well, and that's when we come up with a list of priorities and at the end of the day, your family, you, you can't. If you don't take care of your family, you can't take care of anybody else and if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your family. And so kind of prioritizing those things is important. So obviously your bills and utilities should always come first, right? It's a. But I get what you're saying and that finding that compromise is really hard. And, and, and what's beautiful about money is that it is a finite object and so we, we either have it or we don't have it and we either have enough of it or we don't have enough, but, and uh, and so there say we're working with a budget of a thousand dollars, right? And just a random number. But if you really want to be generous and he wants to be really pragmatic and focus on saving and all of these different things, well how can we, I think you could probably agree that saving is also important.

Speaker 4:                           00:34:20               We could. We got to find some of those common grounds. It's not that it's not important. Maybe it's not as important to you and work backwards from there. Where are we start saying, okay, well it's not as important to you. What will be a good number for you? Think, well maybe we save, you know, 15, 20 percent of that and he made me wants to say 40. And we go, okay, well let's meet in the middle and then whatever we have left, if we covered all of these other expenses, then we can give. And and how. I mean sometimes it does require somebody like us counselor to sit down and kind of help navigate that because is so easy for individuals to want to start protecting their position. And this is one of the great examples of how money really frees us up because one of the lines in my book is I want to retrain our hearts to explore instead of defend and, and that is really at the heart of this.

Speaker 4:                           00:35:16               Because if I am more interested in understanding why generosity is important to you and you're more interested in understanding why savings is important to me, then we are going to have a much better conversation than if I am just saying what's really important to me. And clearly you don't care, so. Right. And so that's when it starts to devolve and you're like, well, you, you know, and then we'd Nevers and always right. And, and it just, it turns into a shouting match and, and it and it, and it becomes unproductive. And I, and I do say it's going to be messy and you are going to have difficult conversations and they may not always end up in hugs, you know, and that's fine. And we're going to come back and we're going to try it again because, uh, there are, there are three types of homes that I've been seeing that and how they manage money in and most of the homes that do separate their money or they go into to have both people managing their own finances and doing their own checking accounts.

Speaker 4:                           00:36:14               You can technically be financially successful doing that. And like I said, that's not really what my book's about, but it does, it is so hard for you to be able to share that part of your life with your spouse when everything's separate. Um, and I, I tell most people that when we use our finances to accommodate an emotional problem or we're not really solving it, were avoiding it band-aiding and, and, and, and so when we, for instance, people would trust problems, I don't trust you. So I'm going to keep my money over here. Well, if you don't trust them with your money, what other areas don't you trust them with? Very true, right? And so your money is, uh, the, the big core issue here that I talk about is a Bible Verse Matthew Six, 21 where your treasure is, your heart will be also.

Speaker 4:                           00:37:07               And so when I want, um, I can't, when I keep my money from you, I'm keeping a part of my heart from you too. I'm keeping my dreams and my hopes, my aspirations, um, and my plans from you. And uh, and it opens the door for secrets and dishonesty. Um, I tell them, most couples, it's very difficult to have an affair without money. It's true. It is very difficult. It's not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult to have an affair without money. And when you have a separate checking accounts, it's much easier to hide transactions, hide problems, hide impulsive spending and hide affairs and, and, and I'm not saying that if you have separate checking accounts, you're going to have an affair, but it does leave open for impulsive spending or spending behind the others back that they don't know about

Speaker 1:                           00:38:01               well and just leaving that door open and not talk about things just in general. It doesn't even need to be anything nefarious. Just the fact that you're not talking about something. And the other part of the, the opportunity may kind of talk about something when I see that jeff has spent $200 at best buy and I'm like, oh well what was that? And then he says, oh, I got, you know, I, I really been wanting to get, you know, whatever it is, you know, it just gives us an opportunity to talk about something. And if you've already mastered that non-defensive talking, being curious about what the other person, what, what the other person is or feeling. Then when you get to that point, when you're talking about things that you're spending money on, it's a lot easier.

Speaker 8:                           00:38:46               Let's take a moment to stop and take a quick break. We'll be right back.

Speaker 1:                           00:38:52               Do you look at your wedding pictures and wonder, how did things go so wrong? Have you given up on your relationship? Are you going to let what you've built together crumble to dust? If not, let me work with you to get your connection back on track. I'm opening my private practice up to a limited number of listeners that are serious about fighting for their relationships. Don't let your relationship, your family, your life fall apart because you let your pride holds you back from asking for help. Call me at six, eight, two, six, five, one, five, seven, five, two, or email me it. Make more love. Not Today we can turn this around together.

Speaker 1:                           00:39:46               What you were saying earlier and um, about being able to talk non defensively and that's really that being able to open up people's streams, like finding out what is it about being generous. That's really big for me. It may be a dream that it also may be something I'm struggling with where I don't feel worthy of taking care of myself first, and that something in this example that jeff could, could be really healing to me and like you were talking about with your wife about you are worthy. You are worthy of taking care of yourself and focusing on your own pleasure. You're worthy of that. And so being able to work through that together, that's when you get to that really vulnerable stuff that you were talking. Yeah,

Speaker 4:                           00:40:28               yeah, absolutely. And, and that's, that's a great example of, you know, in a interrelationship using money as a healing force as opposed to a wounding force because they, it can be go, it can go both ways. I mean, couples could to wound or wound each other with their, the way they manage money or they could heal the other person. And most spouses don't even realize that they have the power to heal their spouse. Most people don't even know that. I mean that the way I respond to you has the potential to be able to heal you. And uh, it, it blows people's,

Speaker 1:                           00:41:05               yeah, and then just the fact that we choose each other for that very reason, like you and your wife chose each other not knowing that you had these very different or maybe you knew, but not on the level of how, how much, how healing it would be that you had these very different ways of looking at money as the example. And I'm sure other things in your life to where you've been able to heal each other because you, you allow that. We have to be able to allow the healing and know that we're again going back to self acceptance or the of that healing.

Speaker 4:                           00:41:32               Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 5:                           00:41:34               That whole thought process of trying to discover what the other person like trying to be a detective of a why do you, why do you want to do this? That seems to be a big thing in a lot of the stuff that we've talked about in the podcast with just overall how to relate with another person, which is, you know, everybody wants to put up the walls and defense. Whereas it's kind of like, well, just why in the world are you wanting to do this? And just trying to discover what the other person's about seems to be a big part of a lot of stuff in, in the therapy world.

Speaker 4:                           00:42:13               Yeah. I mean just emotional intelligence alone is one of the biggest goals that I'm trying to get people to do and get them to understand why they feel the way they feel and be able to communicate it in a way that's just, that goes deeper than just saying I'm frustrated or I'm sad or I'm mad. And so, I mean, we, I even have a section where I talk about the emotional connections that we have to money because most people, if you were to ask them that question, well, why? You know, why you feel that way? They went, well, it just, it frustrates me. Right. And that's, that's about as far as we're going to get. And it's not their fault. I mean they don't have the language and the ability to connect the dots and, and, and, or they've never had to. Um, and the, and most of the time we like settling for the surface because the surface is safe and it's not painful, but when, when I say for instance, a great example in my marriage is when I was not following the budget and I was just doing what I wanted to do, it made my wife feel very chaotic and very anxious.

Speaker 4:                           00:43:18               And so when she would say, she would say because you just frustrating, you know, when you're spending all this money and you're not following the plan. And uh, and I would say no, I'm not doing my counselor voice with Erin as I get a lot of trouble. Don't go there. Yeah. Yeah. I don't do that. But when I am, I did, I did get her to start. I did ask her because I wanted to know. Okay. And she said that it made her feel afraid because we were, she was worried that we weren't going to be able to pay the bills or we weren't going to be able to do the with these things in. Mind you, I wasn't going crazy and we weren't short for money, but it's still made her feel chaotic and overwhelmed. Um, and so when I, when I started to connect, oh, when I manage money, well, I make my wife feel safe and I can, I mean, you can go ask any husband that's a good husband or wants to be a good husband, do you want to make your wife feel safe?

Speaker 4:                           00:44:15               And they'd say, of course I do. Yeah, of course I want to make my wife happy and safe and fulfilled. And so, but we just don't connect those dots. I mean, when I connected the dots that might me doing dishes at home makes my wife feel safe, right? I connect those dots now. I'm not, I'm not like a dishwasher professional now. Okay. I still leave them in the sink longer than they should be there. But when I connected those dots, I felt less resentment. And um, and uh, you know, anger towards her for she was making me do these things right? And I saw them as a love language and a way for me to communicate that to her.

Speaker 1:                           00:44:56               And there was a way she was making a bid to you for connection that you weren't picking up on before, but then when you picked up on it, she feels emotionally safe, she's more open to you and she's more open to giving to you in ways that make you feel emotionally safe and loved and respected.

Speaker 7:                           00:45:13               Exactly. Yeah. That was interesting when you said that somebody just says, oh, I'm frustrated. Then they, they don't have the language for that. And that reminds me of something terror was talking about just last night where it was the five questions of why. So your first one is, you said, well, why? You know, they say I'm frustrated. Okay. Why? And then it goes to the next level. Give you an example that you had.

Speaker 1:                           00:45:38               Oh, okay. Well this one was actually, someone else gave me this, so I hope I don't mess it up. But, but basically it was like this, there they were having a problem with the Washington monument where the chemicals they were using to clean it was breaking down the structure. And so, you know, the, maybe if you're not asking enough questions, the first thing you do is just try to change the chemicals. But they asked the why. So they were like, well, why are we having to use these chemicals to clean it? Well, because there's bird poop all over the structure, or why is there all this bird poop? Well, because there's all these spiders that lived there and the birds are eating the spotter, so they're naturally attracted to the monument. Okay, well why are the spiders there? Well, it's because there's all these gnats that are just all around all the time that the spiders are eating.

Speaker 1:                           00:46:26               So the spiders are attracted to the monument. Well, why are the nats attracted to the monument? Well, because of the lights that are on at night. So after going through all those things, what they got to to solve the entire problem was to turn the lights on 30 minutes later, which made the nats go away and the spiders go away and the et Cetera, et cetera. So just really not settling with the surface and asking each other why, why, why to try to just understand. And even if the person didn't know what was down there, they get there.

Speaker 7:                           00:47:02               Yeah. So the example, like you said too, as you say, they say they're frustrated or they're afraid. I'm afraid. Okay. Why I'm afraid because we may not have money to pay the bills. Okay. Why? Well, my parents had trouble at one time that they didn't have money at one time and we didn't get to eat. Right. You know, and then you just finally go, oh, okay, now I can kind of get a bigger, deeper picture into. You're talking about here that you're so frustrated about and they probably couldn't have come to that. They could never have just said it.

Speaker 4:                           00:47:35               No, and it. But it takes patience and it takes creating a safe atmosphere and you're in your home and in your marriage to where your spouse feels comfortable opening up, you know, the core of the issue.

Speaker 1:                           00:47:50               And it's that action of trust, the action of creating safety every day by working through your own defenses and trying to remain curious instead of getting defensive, which is super hard sometimes, especially if it's something triggering for you. Yeah. How have you learned to regulate?

Speaker 4:                           00:48:09               Uh, well, one of the, uh, one of my big triggers is I'm getting feedback and criticism and, and so when I. One of the things that I had to learn to help regulate that trigger was asking myself the question, did I really do this? You know, is this really my fault? And, and because sometimes I would be so quick to find a reason why it was your fault or why it wasn't really a big deal or I'm discrediting, um, you know, your perspective and I can be really persuasive when I'm motivated to be so. But I slowed down and I started to ask myself, did I really do the things that she's saying that I did or did I not, you know, should I really have done the things that she wanted me to do? And when I was honest, when I slowed down and I asked myself that question, it really enabled me to start taking ownership because when an apology is one of the quickest ways to diffuse an argument and marriage, and even if you don't feel like you did anything wrong, there's always going to be some part that you played in an argument.

Speaker 1:                           00:49:24               Yeah. Even if you. It wasn't intentional. I think people get really tripped up on that. I didn't mean to do that, but the thing is, is the freeing thing is, is the other person's feelings aren't yours. You don't have to own them, but you can have empathy for them. And even though you didn't mean, for instance, to make your wife feel very anxious by spending that money, you can still understand anxiety because you felt it before. And then you can have empathy for that feeling of anxiety and then that gets you to the wise and trying to understand versus being defensive. Because the thing is is that her feelings has feelings. They're feelings and you don't have to own them or fix them. Right?

Speaker 7:                           00:50:10               Yeah. One of the things you said that that was awesome, which is taking the gap, having that gap to be able to have a full understanding of the perspective of where things were at to be able to have a direct action and I think that's a lot of problem with a lot of people. They just don't take the

Speaker 5:                           00:50:28               to step back in there and go and get a better view of what's all going on around them instead of just their own feelings. Well, it hurts. It hurts

Speaker 4:                           00:50:36               and nobody likes the idea of hurting their spouse. I don't think that any of us really liked the idea of disappointing our spouse. And so when we aren't faced with that, it's going to happen. So when we're faced with that, it's a painful experience. Like, I let you down. You're the most important person in the world to me and I let you down, uh, and I, but I didn't mean to. Yeah. And we want to make it okay. I want to make it okay. But if we're leaning into that pain and, and owning it and apologizing is a really. It's a very painful experience in the moment, but then afterwards it feels so good. There's so much relief. But avoiding that pain, uh, I think about it like avoiding a wound or a broken bone, you know, eventually we, we, it doesn't go away. We just learned to live with it.

Speaker 4:                           00:51:31               And, and the, and all of those little things, all of us, a little wounds that go unaccounted for or unaddressed, they compound over time and you throw kids in the mix and you throw money in the mix and you throw stress in the mix and we eventually become two strangers in a home because you don't care. And I stopped listening a long time ago, you know, and, and, and, and it's sad, but I, I've, I've sat with couples who've been married over 25 years, 30 years and they've said I just don't know this person very well and I go, but do you want to know them? Key question and do you remember what it was like when you guys got together? You know, I find those in the stall. Just exercises where they're kind of going back to remind them of why they got into this situation to begin with.

Speaker 4:                           00:52:21               Right. Why did you get married to this person and I understand that they're going to change, but your heart for that person is buried under years of scar tissue and when we can dig deep into that situation and really get you to reconnect with man, I actually do want the best for you and if you return that to me, that will be really great. Yes, I do the same one and I have not had a couple. No matter how awful things are for them when they come in the office that doesn't want to do that exercise.

Speaker 5:                           00:52:55               I love the analogy of being injured. I love that concept that you just said because if you think about it from another perspective that, okay, I, I hurt my ankle and I really should probably go get a surgery or something, but I can still walk around that and I can limp and then that causes another problem because like you're having to walk a little bit different, but the whole thing is someone who is a top level athlete. If they hurt their ankle, they instantly go get it fixed and get the best specialists in everything because they have to be at 100 percent in their mind. They're always thinking, how can I perform at 100 percent? Right? So if you were thinking in those same terms, you would go, this is a problem. I've got to fix it right now so we can be at 100 percent team. You know,

Speaker 4:                           00:53:45               and learning to own your part in the problem is one of the quickest solutions to solving problems and it because it shows the other person, that one, I'm listening and you're being heard and your point is valid. I did mess up and that makes somebody you want to, you want to get somebody's defenses down quick. You just start with an apology and a. and it would be preferable to say why you're sorry,

Speaker 6:                           00:54:15               but amy, take apology. Say Yeah, not just like, I'm sorry. Clarify for sincere. Preferably sincere and preferably heartfelt

Speaker 4:                           00:54:27               because if you really come to the understanding of that, neither one of you likes fighting. I don't like fighting and I. and I think that's one of the things that makes my marriage really great is that neither one of us likes conflict and we operate, like you said, with the professional athlete. Like when there's something off, I want to fix it, not fix it. I want to, I want to find a resolution. I want to understand what's going on and sometimes it gets me in trouble, but some. Most of the time the fact that I care is heard and yes, and it's not just that I'm wanting to fix a problem. It's more that I want to, I care about you and I care about what we have and since that's the case, I don't want to let these things, you know, gather moss, I want to address them and owned whatever I can do to own, you know, it makes, it makes it's a pain in the short term and gain in the long term, you know?

Speaker 6:                           00:55:27               Yeah. No pain, no gain, right? I mean, we all know that one. Right? And you can take any, any illustration of that.

Speaker 4:                           00:55:32               Body. Physical therapy is painful, right? Massages, if you're doing them right, are painful, but there's relief afterwards and it's the same thing with our emotions when we are. That's why it's so cathartic for people to come and talk to us for an hour and they go through some of the most painful tier wrenching things in their life and then they leave feeling relief even though it was painful in that moment. The things that they've been avoiding for so long. They had food, they had dressed them, they faced them and then they felt what they felt in that moment and then they felt relief and.

Speaker 1:                           00:56:07               Yeah, and I also like what you brought up about avoidance being causing long term pain because earlier when you were talking about, okay, we don't like conflict, well a lot of people don't like conflict. Simply avoid it together and then they say, oh, we fight and you know, so were a great couple and usually that is because you're actually avoiding conflict that you don't have any arguments, but knowing that there may be a little bit of pain in the argument, but avoiding the pain is only going to lead to longterm pain, which is disconnection causes pain. So that pain of disconnection is a as a different kind of pain. But the short term pain is worthy of the connection which is this huge joy. Right?

Speaker 4:                           00:56:53               And seeing this one of these tools, I'm having this kind of perspective and, and, and learning to talk like this is great for your marriage, but when you can use money as a tool to be able to kind of, as, especially as practitioners to be able to teach people tangible, practical ways to learn the skill, you know, because money is a finite thing. So it's not our emotions. It's not, you know, I feel like it's, it is. And uh, and so when we go back to something that's a standard, it's really cool to see, once we've created a budget and created a standard for that, both people agreed to that. We compromised on a, that the arguments last a lot, lot, a lot shorter because if, say I overspent on my fun money and I, my wife comes to me and she confronts me about that. Says, Hey, you went over on this. And I, I can't say why I wanted to. And you know,

Speaker 9:                           00:57:52               there is no valid reason. We voted to say I'm not worthy of. We both agreed it's a number.

Speaker 4:                           00:57:59               The number's not lying. I did do it. And so there isn't any, there's really, I have no ground to stand on, but we're when we don't have that standard and we don't have a budget when we come to those kinds of situations where one person went and spent money and the other person's like, well why did you buy that? Well, because we had money and I wanted it, and then that's when we get these big arguments because, well I didn't think you didn't come talk to me and then it devolves really quickly because there is no reason why he. He or she couldn't have bought it other than you didn't like it. And so it makes it a lot more complicated

Speaker 1:                           00:58:39               and going back to that team approach and teams are really successful when they have consistent meetings and have a game plan. And so that's basically what you're talking about is when you build a game plan with money, you're opening up that avenue for communication that gets you to that place of feeling like a team because you have to be able to share in that vulnerability and have those common goals to be able to have a team together. When you have a team together, you feel more connected, you're onboard, you're excited about your goals together and you're stronger. So when you have a little, a small situation, it doesn't take you down like maybe it would have if you didn't have the team.

Speaker 4:                           00:59:17               Yeah. And when you're on a team and somebody makes a mistake here, first isn't think, well, they did that on purpose to make me look bad. Right? I mean implied or assumed in malicious intent is probably one of the biggest obstacles that I see a couple of you did this on purpose, you know, like they get that kind of anger and frustration. It becomes, it creates an adversarial dynamic where I'm now I'm, I'm starting to build walls and I'm having to advocate for my position because I don't think you are going to. And uh, and it, it tears us apart slowly. That's where I see the biggest thing, the most powerful thing is to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Oh, that's it. If we could just do that and as consistently as possible, everyone's marriage would be happier. I love what Bernay Brown says.

Speaker 4:                           01:00:07               She says it's, I want to make the most generous assumption possible while staying within my boundaries. I'm going to misquote this while staying within my boundaries. I'm sticking to my values. I think she said, yeah, but I love. I love making the most generous assumptions possible and that's as a huge model at our home is I want to make the most generous assumption possible for anybody that I encounter. Not because it's going to be good for you, but because it's helps me. It makes my life where I'm. I have a lot less resentment, a lot less frustration, and I'm not seeing all of these people with this malicious perspective of, you know, you did this on purpose, you know, or you do this to me and the victim mentality. It helps a lot.

Speaker 5:                           01:00:55               Yeah. A lot of that is another thing. Talking about the body and everything that I, I've always thought this is interesting is how if you got injured and you just ended up in bed for just a couple of weeks, your legs would atrophy to the point that you'd have to go through rehab just to even be able to walk. So if you aren't in the ability to see the other person's point of view or you just done, you've not exercised that muscle. It makes it really tough to. You have to go through almost a training process. I mean, even just the simple thing, like I remember whenever I was racing one time I had a sponsor that just came up to me and he just, after the race he said, man, I'm really proud of you. And it was like at the time I, you didn't, you just don't hear that very often from somebody at that who's doing that.

Speaker 5:                           01:01:45               And I realized how much I enjoyed that and I like that. So it became. So I started doing it and it was difficult at first to go to somebody and just say, hey, I'm really proud of you, but now it's because I've done it enough times. It's just easier and easier and easier and the responses that you get from other people, I mean, like a friend of mine who may win a race somewhere, I'll just send them a text and just, hey man, I'm super proud of you, Ben. That's really awesome that you did that and you would think that I'm handing them a million.

Speaker 4:                           01:02:17               Yeah, it's amazing when you start to see how a lot of us are jet, we have these little kids inside of us that just want to be validated, right? We just want to feel like we're special or that were important or that were important to you. At least, you know, as, as our significant other. And uh, and when, when we, when we stopped doing that, we take it for granted that it creates. This creates more of a deterioration in the relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. And when you can see that other person's need and see that child inside of them, it disarms both of you. And to your point about the atrophy, it is really hard, um, to start doing any of this stuff if you don't have a safe home environment. And what I mean by that is where we can say I think about a safe relationship is, is a relationship where I can come to you completely as I am.

Speaker 4:                           01:03:13               And even though we may disagree, I'd feel I'm still going to be accepted. And, and if that, if that's not a dynamic that we have in our home, that that's where we need to start before we can do any of this other stuff that we're talking about because we're talking about one of the most vulnerable parts in our life, which is our finances and our dreams and our hopes and what's in our passions. And it's our heart. And if I don't feel safe to share it with you, even though we'd like to think since we're married, we will be able to share that it. It's really a lot more difficult. That's kind of where us as counselors can step in and, um, be a, be a mediator and create that safe space.

Speaker 7:                           01:03:56               You know, something I would find. I don't know if you're going to do this and in your book, but this is something that I would find very interesting about this whole matter because a lot of this stuff that you're talking about right now is really sort of have this time period. So you have the wife and the husband both work, both make their money. They built do this. If you, if you just start going back in time, I mean like just take it back a couple generations, like my parents, my dad worked, my mom stayed at home. The dynamic of the money power was a lot different than absolutely. And my mom didn't have hardly any say. She was basically on a leash for the most part. She, she couldn't do, she couldn't just go have fun money or whatever. And then you can take it back to my grandparents' time is probably even worse. And then you can take it back to the renaissance age. I mean, I'm sure that women didn't have a whole lot of say in how the money was spent and what they did, so I be interested in that evolution that has happened as well,

Speaker 4:                           01:05:01               that it is very, I mean the way the role that we see for our spouses changing and you're, my wife is more meant to be a teammate and a and a partner as opposed to somebody who's going to keep my home, you know, and was opposed to a servant, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1:                           01:05:19               yeah. And so that creates this level of respect and partnership that is new. It's a new part of love going from having love match marriages being only within the last 100 years. So it's a quick evolution.

Speaker 10:                        01:05:38               Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1:                           01:05:40               So I can imagine that it's normal to see growing pains with people struggling through how to manage money together with one person wanting to take control and being able to work through what that means for me as a man or me as a woman and and the same both, some similar women's also struggling with, with being on the team and maybe wanting to be taken care of on some level. Not even knowing that that's like a socialized message or whatever, you know, working through all of the growing pains of this is what a partnership looks like now versus what it looked like for your parents or your grandparents.

Speaker 10:                        01:06:20               Okay.

Speaker 7:                           01:06:21               You know, you hear these statistics that people say the number one reason that there's divorces, there's financial. Now based on what you just said is you can't even get to the financial part if the other parts bad.

Speaker 4:                           01:06:36               Well, the finances, one of the main reasons is it's such a big trigger for divorces because it is such a easily attacked vulnerability in our marriage and because it's something, it's so easy. Yeah. It's something and it is a. We both have access to it, it's tangible and we can rationalize it are so much easier. I can rationalize financial infidelity much quicker and much easier than I would. I'm having an affair, you know, and I, and I've, I've had, I worked with a couple where they both had separate checking accounts and years ago they both agreed they were going to start saving for a home and so they both were supposed to be putting money aside in their checking accounts to make this happen. And for, for three years, three or four years later, one of them had 20 grand in the savings account and the other had none and so, but she had been lying for the three or four years about saving. And so it was a huge yard. I call it, I mean we call it financial infidelity and that you are lying about something and this is his home right at his or her home and this is there a. This is where they hope to be their dream. And I knew, but it was also a lie for three or four years. And so the trust was completely shattered and received the deterioration of the marriage from there, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1:                           01:08:08               So money was not. The problem is the symbol of the problem. Yes. And so that statistic saying divorce is financial is really all

Speaker 5:                           01:08:16               the other stuff we've been talking about, about being able to communicate about money. Because when you're talking about money, you're really talking about your own vulnerabilities. You're talking about your heart, you're talking about your dreams. It's so much deeper than just money. Yes. Well, it also kind of reminds me of a lot of things that people have. People love to think that they come up with rational reasons for making any kind of decision. Like they think that that's the case. And I see this all the time in the car business where, you know, I know for a fact that you're not buying this car for any of those rational and financial reasons you're talking about here is, you know, you're just. I mean, a car is probably the, it's got to be one of the number one things that you would. If you asked somebody, oh, why'd you buy this car?

Speaker 5:                           01:09:02               Oh man, the sink gets great gas mileage. It doesn't. You're like really 25 miles a gallon is great, or Oh, it's got all this great space, or Oh, it's got the like I have a friend of mine, he just bought a tesla recently and he was like, oh, it's such a great car. It's got all this thing and it's got this thing that helps you get against a curb and it's all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever. You're driving that car because you want to send an image of a certain person that you think that you want to send to other people and it becomes an Avatar of who you're trying to portray. That's the reality. Don't even try to think about any or it goes back to something deeper. Like I can give you an example of myself. I mean I owned a 91 Mazda Miata and if I sat here and you said, why do you own that?

Speaker 5:                           01:09:48               I go, Oh man, it's a little car. It gets great gas mileage. It's, you know, I, I bought it. It was cheap. It's been paid for. I bought it with my payments were one payment. I wrote. One check is easy. Oh yeah, this is awesome. And I could, it's actually gone up in value so I could say all these things, but the reality is my dad raced mg midgets and to me that's just a modern day mg midget and I'm just glad, uh, you know, to me that's what I am, but that's hard unless you really know. It's hard to know that. So I would venture to say that that is the reason, you know, they say it's always financial. He did this really, it's just the most pronounced symptom in the problem. So does this car connecting emotionally make you feel emotionally connected to your dad by driving it then? Is that the meaning of it for you? No, I wouldn't say that. I would say it's more just because, I mean I have pictures of me in an mg midget when I was like a couple of weeks old. Right. And I worked on that as a kid and that was my vision of what motor sports was. So the car represents your dream? Yes.

Speaker 6:                           01:10:52               Yeah. Now we just worked it through your system works, so if people want to, I know that it's gonna be some time before they can read your book, but if they want to take your class, how could they access that? That's a great question. I'm going to there. Just need to go to my website, which is foundations

Speaker 4:                           01:11:14               and then I'm going to be creating workshops in times coming up.

Speaker 1:                           01:11:17               Awesome. Okay. So that's something that people can look forward to who are local? Yes. Now, what you have anything online for people who aren't local but still want to learn about this? Uh, I haven't come up with anything. Maybe. Maybe in the future. Now you give them something to think about it. Yeah.

Speaker 4:                           01:11:32               Where are you going to, uh, you're going to wait until the book's done? Are you going to put out some chapters? Teaser chapter? That's a great. I'm actually been thinking about that just to, I've been. Obviously I'm handing it out some of my close friends just to get their feedback and uh, just some other people. But I have been toying around with that idea. I want to get the book cover created first and then I'll be able to really market it more like that, but no, I, I definitely want to do that.

Speaker 1:                           01:12:00               Well, give us your information and we'll post some links to our website for people to look up, so thank you for your time. It was a great conversation. I love having you. Absolutely. It's good.

Speaker 8:                           01:12:13               Thanks.

Speaker 1:                           01:12:15               As always, if you have any questions, comments, or would like to be on the show, go to our website, make more love, not, and send us an email. Be sure to subscribe to our show on either itunes or stitcher to make sure you get our shows as soon as they're available. You can also donate to this show at More love, not war. Thanks for listening.


Jeff Harrison